Quote:

---

"Of all the et'Ada who wandered the early Nirn, Trinimac was the strongest. He, for a very long time, fooled the Alcharyai [Aldmeri - MN] into thinking that tears were the best response to the Sundering.

---

Quote:

---

One of the strongest of these, a barely formed urge that the others call Lorkhan, details a plan to create Mundus, the Mortal Plane.

Humans, with the exception of the Redguards, see this act as a divine mercy, an enlightenment whereby lesser creatures can reach immortality. Aldmer, with the exception of the Dark Elves, see this act as a cruel deception, a trick that sundered their connection to the spirit plane.

---

Quote:

---

To be made of dirt is to be treated as such by your jailers. This is the key and the lock of the Daedra. Why do you think they escaped the compromise?'

---

Quote:

---

Sithis sundered the nothing and mutated the parts, fashioning from them a myriad of possibilities. These ideas ebbed and flowed and faded away and this is how it should have been.

---

Without the Mundus, the Daedra would fade back into the Void no longer having anything to interact with to prove to themselves they exist. True, we are treated as dirt by our Jailors which is to say we are as insignificant as dust but it is something that only our Jailor (I believe this is a reference to mortality) can bind us and keep us here in the Mundus but not erase. A mound of dirt can be scattered but never destroyed and it is just as easy to build it back up again. That is to say it is the "lock and key" of the Daedra because the key to their interaction with us is that they can change us but as long as we are made of Dirt we can never be destroyed. Therefore to reiterate more simply the Key is that the Daedra can control Change within the mortal plane(t) but the lock is that they cannot create or destroy.

Now you may ask me "Do you have any evidence to show that there is any measure of jealousy within the Daedra?" I'm glad you asked ! Perhaps some of you recall the Rape of Vivec by Molag Bal in Sermon 12 :

Quote:

---

Vivec looked on the King of Rape and said:
'How very beautiful you are, that you do not join us. '

---

I believe this was intended as an insult to the Daedra Lord. In essence what Vivec is saying is that he finds it comical that They (the daedra) clothe themselves in Divinity and Greatness but are instead inconsequential spirits that have little influence in the permanance of the mortal plane(t). Permanance is used loosely here. I do not know if there are any prophecies or solid theories about an end to the mortal realm. If there are, please bring it to light. If there is, I may have to reexamine my article . Anyway, before I get off track (something I'm NEVER guilty of ) I would just like to point out that this Sermon seems more to me like a comical allegory, maybe an inside joke of sorts amongst the Tribunal. I have no proof of this, just a bit of personal intuition. Not surprisingly this is also one of the Sermons that seems to contain a hidden message but if you're reading this looking for these try somewhere else. If I felt like breaking damn codes, I'd join the CIA . What Vivec says in plain english however is still enlightening I feel.

Quote:

---

We must love each other briefly,' Vivec said, 'if at all. I am needed to counsel the Hortator in more important matters because the Dwemeri high priests stir up trouble. You may have my head for an hour.'

Molag Bal rose up and extended six arms to show his worth. They were decorated in runes of seduction and its reverse. They were decorated in the annotated calendars of longer worlds. When he spoke, mating monsters fell out.

'Where must it go?' he said.

'I told you,' Vivec said, 'I am meant to be the teacher of the king of the earth. AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME.'

---

Basically what I believe Vivec is saying here is that while Molag Bal might have his way with Him, those that would mourn his passing would accomplish what must be done and that was to help direct Nerevar (see also: "Hortator") against dwemeri high priests. This is because Vivec is the king of the earth. Note that in the writing of "king of the earth" King and Earth are not capitilized as you would expect from such a title. Therefore "king of the earth" is not merely a title it is the existance that all of us share in that we are the king of the earth we are created from. So Vivec lent Molag Bal his "head" which could be a euphamism for his thoughts or perhaps his love/devotion. I think it is more likely his devotion that Molag Bal got but is not what Molag Bal came for. This is what separates the House of Trouble and the Three Anticipations of the Tribunal in my opinion. Whereas the House of Trouble come to the mortal plane(t) seeking control and dominion over the minds and bodies of those that serve them, the Three Anticipations seem to prefer instead a fearful respect. They seek to guide us into an understanding of the Compromise, not to exploit it which is the nature of the House of Troubles.

So in closing, I hope this report shows the character of this Compromise and that is it is mutually beneficial to Aedra/Daedra alike. Without the Mundus the Daedra would have long dissappeared into the void and without the Daedra, we would be as beasts in the Mundus seeking only a great contradiction which is the stasis of life (think about that for a second, you'll get what I'm saying). This is the Compromise as I see it.


PS - Do I get like 10 post credits for this?

EDIT: I don't intend to stop this study here, I just figured it was a good base to go on. When I have more time on Wednesday I will expand on some issues I didn't cover in this prelim.

Edited by Nael (09/09/03 01:38 AM)

Post Extras:      

Well you asked for it then !

I'll just pick it back up where I left off at and we'll cover the difference between the House of Troubles and the Anticipations. If you'll recall the two quotes from Sermon 12, I pointed out how Molag Bal desired Vivec, who in return gave him "his head" which I believe is a reference to love/devotion. Molag Bal asks for proof of this so Vivec let's em have it with poem:

Quote:

---

Vivec spoke two poems to show him such, but only the first is known.

I'm not sure just how much glass it took to make your hair
Twice as much, I am sure, as the oceans have to share
Hell, my sweet, is a fiction written by those who tell the truth
My mouth is skilled at lying and its alibi a tooth

---

Quote:

---

This has since become a forbidden ritual, though people still practice it in secret.

Here is why: The Velothi and demons and monsters that were watching all took out their own spears. There was much biting and the earth became wet.

And this was the last laugh of Molag Bal:

'Watch as the earth shall crack, heavy with so much power, that should have been forever unalike!'

Then that stretch of badlands that had been the site of the marriage fragmented and threw fire. And a race that is no more but that was terrible at the time to behold came forth. Born of the biters, that is all they did, and they ran amok across the lands of Veloth and even to the shores of Red Mountain.

But Vivec made of his spear a more terrible thing, from a secret he had bitten off from the King of Rape. And so he sent Molag Bal tumbling into the crack of the biters and swore forever that he would not deem the King beautiful ever again.

Vivec wept as he slew all those around him with his terrible new spear. He named it MUATRA, which is Milk Taker, and even the Chimeri mystics knew his fury.

---

Quote:

---

The Aedra (I think Vivec means specifically Altmer when he says Aedra but I could be wrong. Any other takes on this?) would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters.

Their teeth are the proselytizers (something that converts ), to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed.'

---

Quote:

---

Third:

'Velothi, your skin has become the pregnant darkness. My brooding has brought this on. Remember that Boethiah asked you to become the color of bruise. How else to show yourselves people of the exodus into the vital: pain?'

---

Quote:

---

'The fire is mine: let it consume thee,
And make a secret door
At the altar of Padhome,
In the House of Boet-hi-Ah
Where we become safe
And looked after.

---

I believe this means to say that the Daedra must also change at this point and become as Dirt (or their aspects). That is the Compromise as a number.


Well folks, that's all I have for today. I will do some more reading when I get back from work tonite and see if I can expand upon this or apologize for being so horribly wrong
And please by all means guys, feel free to shoot me down, no hard feelings, I promise . I did rush this report as well so it's probably more full of holes than a washboard.

Post Extras:      

First off, nice work.

Next, there's really too much to comment on in the time I have. However, a few simple points seem worth mentioning.

I see the Anticipations as the Temple's way of validating the existence of the Tribunal. By acknowledging the power of the Daedra and connecting them to the new 'regime' early Dunmer who were used to worhipping the Daedra would flow more easily into the new religion. I don't know if there is any further connection except perhaps the Anticipations were chosen to best fit each of the Tribunal.

Also, about the Aedra:

Quote:

---

The Aedra (I think Vivec means specifically Altmer when he says Aedra but I could be wrong. Any other takes on this?) would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters.

---

Now I don't know why Vivec would say Aedra if he meant Altmer, but I wouldn't put it past him. However, it says "they were givers before they were liars". I don't know exactly what the lying here refers to (although I have some ideas) but the givers refers to the Aedra giving of themselves to create the Mundus.


Finally, although you have made this subject more clear to me, what exactly is it that you are saying about the compromise? (Part of this problem may be my misunderstanding or the complexity of the subject or both.)

Is it that the Daedra made some compromise that allows them to change but not create/destroy? Or perhaps, does it mean that the Mundus was a compromise between stasis and change?



--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters

Post Extras:      

Hi Nael,

Thank you for attempting this paper, you have made a good start on addressing the topic, 'The nature of the Compromise', and also included some interesting additional background material.

I'm sorry for the delay in posting my response, I have felt a little unwell this week and could not give your paper the attention it warranted until now.

Here, I will just look the first paper you posted since I have not yet had time to study your second posting in detail.

Let's take a look at what you've presented.

Quote:

---

When one speaks of the Compromise, they usually view it as the dichotomy that separates the Aedra from Daedra. In this case most scholars, especially in the West tend to only examine the ancient Aldmeris beliefs and legends concerning the creation of the mortal plane(t) and view this event as "The Sundering."

---

Quote:

---

What exactly is the Sundering or split between the et'Ada (I'll just refer to them as Aedra) and the Daedra you might be asking?

---

Quote:

---

...the Ehlnofey (ancestors of all mortal mer) viewed their being sundered from the spirit plane as being sentenced to purgatory in the mortal plane. Why then do the Chimer/Dunmer not see it as such?

---

Your question is answered in 'The Changed Ones' which you have already referenced.

---

'Boethiah showed them the lies of the et'Ada, the Aedra, and told them Trinimac was the biggest liar of all, saying all this with Trinimac's voice!

Boethiah told the mass before him the Tri-Angled Truth.'

---

It was the teachings of Daedra, Boethiah and Mephala in particular, that led the Chimer to refute the Aldmeri tradition of worship of the Aedric plane(t)s, their belief in 'The Sundering' and all its associated religiosity.

So the question should really be, "How does this Daedric perspective contradict the Aldmeri tradition?"

I accept that you know that this is the real issue, since you turn your attention next to the 'Scripture Of The Mace' and what it tells us of the Daedra.

Here, you have connected the notion of being 'made of dirt' with mortality, which I agree with and also feel is an important theme. Part of this Sermon that you didn't mention,

'Take from us the lessons as a punishment for being mortal' ( Sermon 32 v3)

is particularly important, since it also indicates the Daedric contempt for the Aedric 'treatment' of mortals.

Where does this take us with regard to understanding the 'Compromise', though?

Why should it be something that the Daedra have 'escaped'? And, moreover, have they?

Looking at the 'lock and the key' for a moment, I believe it may relate to the freedom and captivity of the Daedra, rather than of mortals. Or perhaps of both Daedra and mortals.

Something about the freedom of Daedra is mentioned in 'The Words Of Clan Mother Ahnissi...' ,

'Azurah spoke the First Secret to the Moons and they parted and let Azurah pass...'

Whereas, the section you have quoted from 'Sithis' actually relates to the state of the Gray Maybe before the inception of Aurbic Time, that is the birth of Akatosh or Auriel, as that text subsequently reveals;

---

'One idea, however, became jealous and did not want to die; like the stasis, he wanted to last. This was the demon Anui-El*, who made friends, and they called themselves the Aedra.

They enslaved everything that Sithis had made and created realms of everlasting imperfection.'

* Auriel and Anuiel are often used interchangably. In any case, Auriel is the active expression of Anuiel and thereby the instigator of the 'everlasting imperfections'.

---

So then, what is the 'Compromise' and how does it relate to everything that you have looked at here?

We agree that it is indicative of a Daedric or Daedra inspired perspective. So perhaps this would be a better direction to look next.

I suggest looking just a little more deeply at Vivec's teachings for evidence of a Daedric perspective and of the precise nature of 'the Compromise' which you should try to spell out for us - take a look at Sermons 10 and 13.

And I would very much like you to continue with your study, Nael.


As a side note, the label of 'king of the earth' is made a little clearer in Sermon 11 v7.

I will add some further comments on your follow up post as soon as I can, unless you beat me to it with a further update.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras:      

Quote:

---

"I am the sword, Ayem the star, Seht the mechanism that allows the transformation of the world. Ours is the duty to keep the compromise from being filled with black sea." (Sermon 13, v. 18)

---

A reference to the Tribunal holding back Oblivion. From what I said in Part 2 of my report in the last paragraph you should know that once the Tribunal is no more we would be left with a huge gap in the struggle for balance amongst mortals and the divine.

As to the second quote, I think it's more directed at the House of Troubles than anything and their exploitation of the Compromise. And why did they escape? Who the Hell would want to be made of dirt anyway if you had a choice?

Post Extras:      

Quote:

---

The two quotes you gave me, especially the first one, only back up what I have said:

---

Actually, they don't. The Compromise is indicated, here, as a something that the Daedra have explicitly 'escaped', whereas you reason that it is something they are tied to.

I am not saying that you are entirely wrong, but perhaps not for the reasons you have given so far.

In saying that the 'black sea' is Oblivion, it is not a huge step to ask yourself what the Tribunal have appointed themselves the protectors of against Oblivion's forces. This, then, is the 'Compromise'.

But why should such a term be used? What does it tell us about the Daedric world view?

You have already touched upon much in response to the second of these questions, but again perhaps not in a way that is consistent with the topic.

Let me explain. I have read through the second section of your report and I find little that connects to the topic of the Compromise. Your numerological terms escape me, I'm afraid. I say this only to be clear and not to offend you.

However, you did mention part of this section from Sermon 21 v5-8,

---

Circles are confused serpents, striking and striking and never given leave to bite.

The Aedra would have you believe different, but they were givers before liars. Lies have turned them into biters.

Their teeth are the proselytizers; to convert is to place oneself in the mouth of falsehood; even to propitiate is to be swallowed.'

Third:

'The enlightened are those uneaten by the world.

---

The part you quoted does again go to the heart of the topic; "[The Aedra] were givers before liars".

This refers to the act of giving entered into by the eight Aedric planets, as described earlier in Sermon 21 (v3), "[The Spokes of The Wheel] are the lent bones of the Aedra, the Eight gift-limbs to SITHISIT, the wet earth of the new star our home."

Again, this an apparently critical perspective that revises the view of the Aedra as 'victims' of the Sundering. It is therefore indicative of a Daedric, or certainly a Chimeri, influence. Here, the Aedra are regarded as those that chose to give of themselves for the creation of the Mundus, only to later become corrupted and become 'liars'.

Of huge importance, here, is the statement, "The enlightened are those uneaten by the world". As I mentioned to you earlier, the only contra-Aldmeri world view amongst the races of Men is that of the Nords and their title for Akatosh (or rather Alduin) is the 'Time-Eater' or the 'World-Eater'.

The key in all of this is to understand what is at stake for the Immortals, in persuading mortals to acknowledge one god over another. What is it that the Daedra are specifically saying about the mortal relationship to the divine when they say "To be made of dirt is to be treated as such by your jailers."?

To quote Kier-Jo, "When will you awake from the Elven Lie that all men believe?" ('The Elven Lie')


Edit: I'm sorry Ferret. I didn't mean to ignore you, I was just concerned to address Nael's points since he is reviewing this topic for the Whirling School.

No I don't think that the 'making of dirt' applies to the Daedra. I think that is shown by the statement "Take from us the lessons as a punishment for being mortal." - what is being demonstrated is the Daedric message to mortals in contrast to the predominantly held belief in the 'goodness' of the Aedra.

--------------------
Dean of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec

The Whirling School | Academy for Dwemer Studies | TES Lore FAQ

Post Extras:      

Quote:

---

The fire is mine: let it consume thee,
And make a secret door
At the altar of Padhome,
In the House of Boet-hi-Ah

---

Quote:

---

He saw the twin head of a ruling king who had no equivalent. And eight imperfections rubbed into precious stones, set into a crown that looked like shackles, which he understood to be the twin crowns of the two-headed king. And a river that fed into the mouth of the two-headed king, because he contained multitudes.

---

The "two-headed king" with a crown of shackles could represent two realities that might exist between the Mundus and Oblivion. The reality of being devoured by one head and distributed out of the other. Perhaps those that are as the Tribunal, possibly even Tiber Septim, are as Daedra Lords in Oblivion and vice versa. If this is true then I believe the dwemer never disappeared but instead created another world of their own devices and that the Heart of Lorkhan in our world is a representation of the prison we exist within that the dwemer managed to escape (represented as 1/0. 1 outside of what they refused believe.) When the dwemer appeared to vanish from this world, those that existed on Nirn at that instant probably appeared to vanish as well to the dwemer.

So anyway... I think these ideas need some work so I will get back to it after I have studied and if anyone wants to collaborate it would be much appreciated. Especially someone that might be able to incorporate the myths about the divines. Just send me a PM . Thanks again for puttin up with my ramblings.

EDIT: Is that what you meant Ferret?

Edited by Nael (09/12/03 06:03 PM)

Post Extras:      

Quote:

---

Now Lorkhan had by at this point seen everything there was to see, and could accept none of it. Here were the etada with their magic and their voids and everything in between and he yearned for the return to flux but at the same time he could not bear to lose his identity. He did not know what he wanted, but he knew how to build it. Through trickery (“We have made the Aurbis unstable with the voids”) and wisdom (“We are of two minds and so should make a perfect gem of compromise”) and force (“Do what I say, rude spirit”), he bound some of the strongest etada to create the World.

---

Lorkhan proposed a compromise between this flux and his own continuity. He wanted change without being destroyed (or dissolved). I see this compromise, in a way, as a compromise between those Aedra that were obsessed with there own persistence (Akatosh and his followers) and those that were thrilled with change (perhaps the Daedra and some of the other Aedra). But apparently all the Daedra escaped the compromise and were not used to create the Mundus. Or somethig like that.

--------------------
Fellow of The Theoretical Whirling School Of Vivec
If you're not confused, you're not paying attention. - Tom Peters

Post Extras: